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	<title>Comments on: Humilty, Life as a programmer, TDD, Scrum, (and a little F#)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/</link>
	<description>software, trading, family, fun</description>
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		<title>By: chrisdrop</title>
		<link>http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/comment-page-1/#comment-2594</link>
		<dc:creator>chrisdrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/#comment-2594</guid>
		<description>Luke;

Yes - I can appreciate your comments. I also agree moreover that we &quot;went out too long&quot; with this release. While I have been successful with implementing scrum in several teams in my current position, the higher up you go in the organization, the harder it is to convince people to change. I actually had a number of conversations that are not to dissimilar from your comments.

The salient bits to me are:

- humility is important.
- unit tests are imperative, but will not prevent all bugs.
-your velocity can be killed by the &#039;outlier&#039; event

As your comments help illuminate; N smaller projects running under a non-agile umbrella - is not agile. 

I am making headway still - and I think I have managed to compel people throught this particular project that you MUST be more iterative, must be getting end user feedback earlier and must simply disperse the risks of project delivery into smaller bites.

All great food for thought - thanks again for the comments.

-Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luke;</p>
<p>Yes &#8211; I can appreciate your comments. I also agree moreover that we &#8220;went out too long&#8221; with this release. While I have been successful with implementing scrum in several teams in my current position, the higher up you go in the organization, the harder it is to convince people to change. I actually had a number of conversations that are not to dissimilar from your comments.</p>
<p>The salient bits to me are:</p>
<p>- humility is important.<br />
- unit tests are imperative, but will not prevent all bugs.<br />
-your velocity can be killed by the &#8216;outlier&#8217; event</p>
<p>As your comments help illuminate; N smaller projects running under a non-agile umbrella &#8211; is not agile. </p>
<p>I am making headway still &#8211; and I think I have managed to compel people throught this particular project that you MUST be more iterative, must be getting end user feedback earlier and must simply disperse the risks of project delivery into smaller bites.</p>
<p>All great food for thought &#8211; thanks again for the comments.</p>
<p>-Chris</p>
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		<title>By: chrisdrop</title>
		<link>http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/comment-page-1/#comment-2593</link>
		<dc:creator>chrisdrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/#comment-2593</guid>
		<description>Michael;

No - the bug was not concurrency related. It was related to a deep clone implementation. Essentially, we have a layer that does deepcloning of some object graphs. Part of the graph was pointing, to something else&#039;s internals. It was a very C++ throwback set of circumstances.

We actually have lots of tests for this particular app that deal with its multi-threaded aspects. These sort of fall into the &#039;integration tests in a unit test harness family&#039; moreover, but they were helpful and I believe effective. I would assert that writing good concurrent software is hard, but doing so with tests certainly makes it all a lot easier.

-Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael;</p>
<p>No &#8211; the bug was not concurrency related. It was related to a deep clone implementation. Essentially, we have a layer that does deepcloning of some object graphs. Part of the graph was pointing, to something else&#8217;s internals. It was a very C++ throwback set of circumstances.</p>
<p>We actually have lots of tests for this particular app that deal with its multi-threaded aspects. These sort of fall into the &#8216;integration tests in a unit test harness family&#8217; moreover, but they were helpful and I believe effective. I would assert that writing good concurrent software is hard, but doing so with tests certainly makes it all a lot easier.</p>
<p>-Chris</p>
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		<title>By: michel</title>
		<link>http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/comment-page-1/#comment-2576</link>
		<dc:creator>michel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/#comment-2576</guid>
		<description>Was this bug concurrency related? Those sometimes take some time to repro and activate. And TDD isnt really apt to find those bugs, at least thats what I have found out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was this bug concurrency related? Those sometimes take some time to repro and activate. And TDD isnt really apt to find those bugs, at least thats what I have found out.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Melia &#187; Chris Donnan on Agile and Humilty</title>
		<link>http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/comment-page-1/#comment-2573</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Melia &#187; Chris Donnan on Agile and Humilty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chrisdonnan.com/blog/2007/11/11/humilty-life-as-a-programmer-tdd-scrum-and-a-little-f/#comment-2573</guid>
		<description>[...] Part of agile is acknowledging that building software is hard and human beings (including yourself) are fallible. Chris Donnan has a blog post about his recent run-in with this truth: So - last monday (it is now Saturday), at around 8PM - I found a troubling bug in the software I was about to go to QA with. I worked on it till midnight. I worked on it with an excellent collegue the next day from around 830 AM till around 130 AM (the next dayâ€¦late)â€¦. same thing the next day, and the nextâ€¦ and the nextâ€¦ We thought we had fixed it!! We stayed till around 10pm packaging a build for QA â€¦ we were wrong, before we sent it to QA, we found the bug elsewhereâ€¦. bad. sad. un-good. did i mention bad? Today - saturday, I found the bug. It was in an area of code I had written some hundreds of unit tests for. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Part of agile is acknowledging that building software is hard and human beings (including yourself) are fallible. Chris Donnan has a blog post about his recent run-in with this truth: So &#8211; last monday (it is now Saturday), at around 8PM &#8211; I found a troubling bug in the software I was about to go to QA with. I worked on it till midnight. I worked on it with an excellent collegue the next day from around 830 AM till around 130 AM (the next dayâ€¦late)â€¦. same thing the next day, and the nextâ€¦ and the nextâ€¦ We thought we had fixed it!! We stayed till around 10pm packaging a build for QA â€¦ we were wrong, before we sent it to QA, we found the bug elsewhereâ€¦. bad. sad. un-good. did i mention bad? Today &#8211; saturday, I found the bug. It was in an area of code I had written some hundreds of unit tests for. [...]</p>
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